Article: How LFR is killing the Forgotten Realms

[4EHater]

To argue that 4E isn't an MMO is like arguing that the Earth is truly flat.

The problem with Forgotten Realms is WotC force-fed the generic 4E lore down its throat so they can bring every campaign setting into uniformity.

It's 4E that is killing FR. You want players to be interested in the RP and the lore of FR again? Go back to the days of 2e TSR when there were thousands of words in small font embracing each page of those books, little art, little mechanics, and pure lore. That's what made FR the famous campaign setting that it is. And now it's reduced to an MMO with next-to-nothing lore spread out between huge chunks of game mechanics and tiny articles in Dungeon Magazine.

Remember Faiths&Avatars, Shining South, Lands of Intrigue, the Savage North and many more, filled to the brim with lore. Even side-books like Code of the Harpers, Draconomicon, and Cult of the Dragon.

We don't see material like that anymore, instead we see books written with material that drive players to only care about the mechanics and the dungeon grinding.

4E's method of designing the game was a mistake from the beginning. The failing market for 4E, which is evident in every action WotC has been taking as of late, is proof of that.

Let's not forget the thousands that gave up on FR after the 100 year change and the 4E force-feeding. It's on a slow death. It's best bet of staying alive is to sell or license it to a game company that cares about it. (Paizo and their Pathfinder rules for FR would be wonders!)

[D'karr]

To argue that 4E isn't an MMO is like arguing that the Earth is truly flat.

The problem with Forgotten Realms is WotC force-fed the generic 4E lore down its throat so they can bring every campaign setting into uniformity.

It's 4E that is killing FR.

Hah, hah. Good one. This is so 2008...

There are two words that I can easily use to refute that assertion; Dark Sun.

If it was 4e that was killing FR, then the same could be said about Dark Sun or even Eberron, and nothing could be further from the truth.

This has very little to do with the 4e ruleset itself. There is nothing inherent to the 4e rules that would do this. This has everything to do with how the LFR adventures have been done and their "story" disconnect to FR itself.

FR is not dying at all. I've had the opportunity to play in two games of FR that have been fantastic. But neither of them were based on LFR adventures. Even then there are very few LFR adventures that I'd put in the "turd" category. It's just that a lot of them were "bland" and "disconnected".

[ERJHolton]

I don't think 4EHater has the remotest inkling of the depth of lore that goes into many MMOs. EverQuest (and its sequel), WoW and EVE Online all are excellent examples where the backstory has immense depth. Puts a damper on his arguments, in my opinion.

[Matt James]

I wrote an article on Critical Hits about the MMO topic and showed how MMOs ripped off D&D. This, however, is off-topic.

[UkPlayerX]

I wrote an article on Critical Hits about the MMO topic and showed how MMOs ripped off D&D. This, however, is off-topic.

Correct me if wrong, but wasn't it in Gary Gygax's epitaph/eulogy/memorial somewhere stated that NEARLY EVERY pc/mmo game where you attempt to hit something used the mathematical formula of THAC0 or similar? without gg no mmo (and without tolkien no D&D)
off topic...continue, sorry

[4EHater]

Hah, hah. Good one. This is so 2008...

There are two words that I can easily use to refute that assertion; Dark Sun.

If it was 4e that was killing FR, then the same could be said about Dark Sun or even Eberron, and nothing could be further from the truth.

This has very little to do with the 4e ruleset itself. There is nothing inherent to the 4e rules that would do this. This has everything to do with how the LFR adventures have been done and their "story" disconnect to FR itself.

FR is not dying at all. I've had the opportunity to play in two games of FR that have been fantastic. But neither of them were based on LFR adventures. Even then there are very few LFR adventures that I'd put in the "turd" category. It's just that a lot of them were "bland" and "disconnected".

When was the last time you saw an extensive, barely-any-game-mechanics, book for the Forgotten Realms setting with pages and pages of small font outlines of so many story-driven and highly detailed layouts of cities, regions, maps, etc.?

Personally, not since the days of 2E. Churning out the books did run TSR to the ground, but I think TSR would still be around if they focused solely on just FR and Greyhawk alone. But hindsight is 20/20.

3rd Edition tried to do a mixture of the two, but then WotC got stingier with its budget and we saw less and less FR lore as the years went by. Now, all we have is these weak LFR modules, a short blurb in Dungeon 1/month, and every few years a (like that Neverwinter book coming out soon). Everything else is in the novels.

There is clear evidence that it's really the FR novel line that they only care about and not so much as the game. All of their novels are canon to the setting and they are churning out dozens of those novels every few months. Shouldn't those novels be adventure modules? Shouldn't those novels be in Dungeon articles and FR books to expand on the setting and make the players realize it's a fantasy world, not a loot and kill world?

How does Dark Sun and Eberron have anything to do with what I said about Forgotten Realms dying? I stated Forgotten Realms dying because of the lack of support for it as a game setting, the force-feeding of the 4th Edition mythology into the Forgotten Realms mythology, the timeline jump which affected both the game and novels, and dozens of other factors that were quickly turning off long-time Realms fans (like myself) into real haters of the new (and not anything of the same) Forgotten Realms setting. At this point and time, it's been clear between many gamers that the pre-4E and post-4E Realms are two very different settings. The name brand is their only real similarity.

Even Ed Greenwood posted on Candlekeep his warning to the company that this is not going to do the Realms any good. And he was right.

Eberron is too new, and it was clear from its origins that it was being built for the upcoming 4th Edition. Let's not forget that Eberron was being built alongside the beginnings of the 4th Edition rules. It's why Eberron received almost NO changes to its setting except for a 3 year time jump. Which angered many Eberron fans and WotC decided NOT to do the timeskip. Spoiled much? Did the FR fans get anything? No. WotC clearly cares less about its original base, it wants a new one. Which means, in time, the new base will be discarded as easily as we were.

Dark Sun hasn't been given spotlight for so long that it's hard to tell what has happened to it. Now I will call it out here, that Ravenloft will be lost in the 4E mythology mess and will no longer be the same Ravenloft it was before.

It is clear this is all a battle of the old generation against the new. I believe anyone for 4E and any of the campaign settings affected by it are avid WoW players and have not grown up playing D&D since 1e or 2e, so they have not been able to fully grasp and appreciate what D&D was and how it lost what it used to be with the WotC CCG/MMO mindset shoved into D&D's carcass.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

SIDENOTE: If you want to save the Realms, sell it to Paizo Publishing for Pathfinder, or give it back to Greenwood. In fact, Ed Greenwood is already doing freelance work for them so that doubles benefits of bringing the Realms back in line to what it should be by selling it to them.

[Matt James]

I'm sorry, you have so many argument fallacies that we can't even have a conversation. I won't delete your post, as I think it serves as a good example. All of that aside, it appears you came to this site with the specific purpose of trolling. Is your issue is with format? I can totally appreciate your opinion on the matter, and to some extent empathize with your dislike of some of the changes. I can only hope you continue to find enjoyment in your own gaming needs.

As for Ed (of whom I am great friends with), he doesn't post on Candlekeep. You would do well to not parse words he may or may not have said, as I will not take it lightly. Furthermore, what kind of pompous, arrogant ass do you have to be to assume you know what is best for everyone and where the Realms should exist?

As a side note, Luis, I would be interested in knowing what exactly you created in the Expanded Psionics book-- something you have stated clearly on Meetup.com and of which I can find no one who knows you from that project.

This article and topic is about the Living Campaign. Please keep it on topic, or troll another website. I would even suggest airing your grievances over at the Wizards site.