Kelpie

[Frylock]

I'm converting the classic AD&D adventure, S2: White Plume Mountain (by Lawrence Schick), into my dungeon crawl system as part of my next article under the Protection from Chaos series. In doing so, I had to recreate the Kelpie, a carnivorous plant that appears as a beautiful woman and lures men to their deaths. The creature was introduced to the world of D&D by this adventure, and I couldn't find it in 4th edition format anywhere else, so with a little inspiration from a couple of classic D&D monsters re-skinned to match the traits of the Kelpie, I created it myself. Here it is: The Kelpie. Try to resist.

[Alphastream]

Awesome. I like the effect the main attack has on the combat... the kind of monster to make everyone pause and reconsider their actions.

[Frylock]

Awesome. I like the effect the main attack has on the combat... the kind of monster to make everyone pause and reconsider their actions.

Thanks, T. The reason I posted this is because I was really happy with it and wanted to share. I'm guessing the melee characters will initially be happy they're being drawn in but quickly recall the saying, "Be careful what you wish for."

[Matt James]

I would clean the stat-block up a bit. The condition Grabbed already assumes that it is not broken until countered, so I would remove the "(until escape)". The secondary attack of Charming Grasp already has a conditional attached to it via the hit line, so I would have it instead read:

Secondary Attack: Melee 1 (one creature grabbed by the Kelpie); +20 vs. Will

[Frylock]

I would clean the stat-block up a bit. The condition Grabbed already assumes that it is not broken until countered, so I would remove the "(until escape)". The secondary attack of Charming Grasp already has a conditional attached to it via the hit line, so I would have it instead read:

I've made the change with respect to your second point. However, I don't understand the first point. 4e has always included a qualifier for escaping the grab because the qualifier could be either "until escape" or "save ends," making such qualifier necessary. In looking for examples, I noticed that this has changed. In Monster Vault: Threats of the Nentir Vale, the qualifier is now "escape DC ##."

Now I'm really confused. The Compendium still defines Escape as being Acrobatics v. Reflex or Athletics v. Fortitude, so shouldn't there be two DCs? Even so, shouldn't the DC given at least match one of the relevant defenses? Sometimes it doesn't. See, e.g., Elder Peryton, Reflex and Fortitude defenses are different and escape DC doesn't equal either of them; but see the Leaping Felldrake, escape DC = Fortitude defense, which is 3 less than Reflex defense.

FYI: I've changed the Kelpie on my server, but I can't change the image you've posted here. Unless it's automatically updated, I'll need your help.

Thanks for the input.

[Alphastream]

The new guidance is to just provide an Escape DC, which a creature can attempt with either of the two skills.

[Frylock]

The new guidance is to just provide an Escape DC, which a creature can attempt with either of the two skills.

I understand, but shouldn't that DC vary depending on which skill defense the PC targets? In theory, it's slightly better than "until escape," so I'm by no means criticizing the new system. It just appears to be incomplete. If you click on the link to my new Kelpie image, you'll see that I added, "escape DC 28 or 29," and I'm actually tempted to rewrite that as the wordy, "escape DC Atheltics 28 or Acrobatics 29."

If the rule has changed to where it's, let's say, the lower of the two DCs, that's fine, but the Compendium (and the monster entries in Adventure Tools) need to be updated to reflect that. Right now, it actually somewhat of a mess, and all I've looked at are three monster entries from Nentir Vale.

[Alphastream]

I understand, but shouldn't that DC vary depending on which skill defense the PC targets? In theory, it's slightly better than "until escape," so I'm by no means criticizing the new system. It just appears to be incomplete. If you click on the link to my new Kelpie image, you'll see that I added, "escape DC 28 or 29," and I'm actually tempted to rewrite that as the wordy, "escape DC Atheltics 28 or Acrobatics 29."

If the rule has changed to where it's, let's say, the lower of the two DCs, that's fine, but the Compendium (and the monster entries in Adventure Tools) need to be updated to reflect that. Right now, it actually somewhat of a mess, and all I've looked at are three monster entries from Nentir Vale.

No, it is just one DC (set according to monster level at the medium or hard DC for a skill check at that level usually, depending on what works best for the power/monster). That becomes your Escape DC. Check out a Monster Vault Roper (level 10, Escape DC 26 - that's a level 10 hard DC). PC picks either Acrobatics or Athletics when they make their check against the one DC. That new system is better than having to look up two defenses and perhaps the player having to consider both their own skill and what defense might be lower. Wasted time, so the new rule streamlines play. Your Kelpie should be something like "and grabbed (escape DC 31)". The rules for escape already mean "until you escape" so you don't need such language. It is possible to have something like "grab (save ends)" though it is generally not better in play.

You can find the rules in RC 243. Note that if you don't give it a DC then you use the defense according to skill used. This is basically a way of saying "Dude, we aren't going to reprint every monster that grabs. If we didn't update it, then use the old system."

[Frylock]

I agree. That's a much better rule.