Im kind of suprised that nobody started a thread on the bladesinger preview..

[D'karr]

Some people always allow their first reactions to something to be negative. There hasn't even been enough time for most people to even give this a try once, let alone several sessions to make a judgement.

This reminds me of the "gnashing of teeth" and the "legendary suffering" that followed the release of the monk class and the mystic theurge in 3e. There were entire threads written about how broken these classes were and how they totally changed the balance of the game. These threads of course by people that had not played one single minute with these classes, they were for all intents and purpose "theoretical playtesters".

In actual practice the monk class was one of the weakest classes in 3e and the mystic theurge suffered from the obvious balancing act that was a spell caster without a full spell progression. That didn't stop the "chicken littles" of the interwebs from over reacting.

When I first got the 4e PHB I looked at the classes there and after reading them I surmised that the Warlord was an interesting class but really did not grab my attention. A couple of months later I had to "volunteer" for the D&D Championship Open to fill a seat. I had no skin in the game so I took the last pregenerated character left after everyone had picked, the Warlord. Let me tell you, the class played significantly differently than it had read, and was a total blast to play.

That is one of the reasons that I don't "judge" anything anymore unless I've at least played it once or twice.

[vercingetorix]

it looks ok, I can't tell if its a 4.5 class or not. I am not a fan of the pre-determined powers. I thought that an elven/eladrin swordmage basically was a bladesinger already, or think it would make a good paragon path. I guess we will have to see how it turns out. I do like the varied abilites, and versatile nature of this class. and of course its always good to have a staple like bladesingers back in the game.

[Diffan]

it looks ok, I can't tell if its a 4.5 class or not. I am not a fan of the pre-determined powers. I thought that an elven/eladrin swordmage basically was a bladesinger already, or think it would make a good paragon path. I guess we will have to see how it turns out. I do like the varied abilites, and versatile nature of this class. and of course its always good to have a staple like bladesingers back in the game.

What's this 4.5 you speak of? As for pre-determined powers, you get your choice if 3 at-will powers (out of 6), the whole spectrum of wizard encounter spells (for your dailies), and the whole spectrum of wizard utility spells. The only thing that's predetermined is what you gain at levels other classes get encounter powers (3rd, 7th, 13th, etc...) That's a pretty big change for a class designed off it's MBA.

As for the swordmage in general, I'd think elves and eladrin think the class as a bastardized version of their racial namesake.

[gaming tonic]

The thing that gets me about all the swordmage rhetoric in regards to bladesinger is that the swordmage is clearly defensive and the bladesinger is obviously offensive. The power selection is different and you can choose which you take along with feats, so the pre-selected argument is a little weak because it kind of applies to every class in some regards. I would like to see more about why it isn't any good from people who probably haven't even played it. I see a lot of this sucks all over the internet but nobody really has a legitimate reason why. That goes for so much more than the bladesinger.

[vercingetorix]

What's this 4.5 you speak of?

you know, nonessentials.

new classes, new feats, new rules. I know 4.5 when I see it.

The thing that gets me about all the swordmage rhetoric in regards to bladesinger is that the swordmage is clearly defensive and the bladesinger is obviously offensive. The power selection is different and you can choose which you take along with feats, so the pre-selected argument is a little weak because it kind of applies to every class in some regards.

if you play the swordmage defensive then you are doing it wrong.

[4649matt]

Played in a one-off with friends where one was played. It was entertaining to see this at the same table as a Swordmage.
The Bladesinger focused on control in the form of movement/action denial.
They used Unseen hand a lot for the slide. The target of 'one creature' meant they could slide allies as well, so they used it to slide enemies to the defender, slide the defender to enemies or to slide enemies away from squishies. It reminded me of the druid chill wind at-will or the wizards beguiling strands in a single target format.
Lightning Ring coupled well with the Swordmages Booming Blade as a disincentive to move away/punishment stacking if it did. We weren't certain if this damage triggered off of forced movement, but the DM gave it to them making Lightning Ring + Unseen Hand a decent way to squeeze out some damage.
They used a charm spell for their daily that slid a monster and made it attack, which was a nice trick to augment their Jedi mind tricks.* The player liked having wizard spells, but felt underwhelmed by most of them as daily powers.
*Suggestion cantrip = mind trick, Unseen hand = force push, Lightning Ring = force lightning...
The Bladesinger felt a lot like the swordmage until the player realized they could target other creatures, then it opened up. I can imagine a number of interesting possibilities for this class.
Overall it was pretty cool: good control, good damage, good defenses and it synergized well well with the party.
The base abilities made for a great base, but the encounter powers as daily powers left the player feeling cold. We would have to play beyond level 1 to see how that plays out over time. The swordmage was annoyed that they had to spend feats to get the eqiuvalent of base Bladesinger abilities though.

[Darth Jerod]

I am going to see quite a few of them played tomorrow in Encounters. I will have a thought on them tomorrow night for sure.

[vercingetorix]

This reminds me of the "gnashing of teeth" and the "legendary suffering" that followed the release of the monk class and the mystic theurge in 3e. There were entire threads written about how broken these classes were and how they totally changed the balance of the game. These threads of course by people that had not played one single minute with these classes, they were for all intents and purpose "theoretical playtesters".

In actual practice the monk class was one of the weakest classes in 3e and the mystic theurge suffered from the obvious balancing act that was a spell caster without a full spell progression. That didn't stop the "chicken littles" of the interwebs from over reacting.

When I first got the 4e PHB I looked at the classes there and after reading them I surmised that the Warlord was an interesting class but really did not grab my attention. A couple of months later I had to "volunteer" for the D&D Championship Open to fill a seat. I had no skin in the game so I took the last pregenerated character left after everyone had picked, the Warlord. Let me tell you, the class played significantly differently than it had read, and was a total blast to play.

That is one of the reasons that I don't "judge" anything anymore unless I've at least played it once or twice.

oh you have a great point i can't even argue against that wisdom. but there are going to be classes i probably will never get a chance to play, I still haven't played everything out of the 1st PHB (never been a wizard, or a warlock), so I call some how i see them, I could be wrong as your example points out, but I still like to take a guess.

[Matt James]

To be fair, have you ever played everything out of any RPG? I haven't.

[Darth Jerod]

So one of my Wed night Encounters players played a bladesinger. He is more suited as a player to Fighters and well... fighters because in the middle of the fight with the Dragon he asks me what is the point of this class, it is a wizard with a melee weapon...

the other five people at the table stared in stunned silence, even his dad who plays with us just looked at him kind of funny.

In play it is pretty decent, strong melee to-hits since attacks are based on intelligence so he has a +8 with his melee weapon, a Longsword in this case. He then has his choice of three at-wills that trigger off a successful melee hit that has a range of 10 and targets one creature. So you can hit your primary target or work the controller aspect and work over other targets with the various effects from granting combat advantage to movement effects or more damage if the target moves again before your next turn.

add in the cantrips, daily and encounter powers and he is a squishy melee controller with range options like Ray of Enfeeblement.

I would love to play one as my love for the Eladrin and this class work well together, I could see having a lot of fun with it. Played correctly of course.

Attacking a creature then applying Lightning Ring on a minion is a waste of the extra damage for a free hit. This player just does not grasp this concept. He is also known to use daily and encounters against known minions so it is no stretch that if I really want to waste a portion of the parties resources quickly I rush the minions in the fight first at him. That is just me being mean though.

---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 PM ----------

Played in a one-off with friends where one was played. It was entertaining to see this at the same table as a Swordmage.
The Bladesinger focused on control in the form of movement/action denial.
They used Unseen hand a lot for the slide. The target of 'one creature' meant they could slide allies as well, so they used it to slide enemies to the defender, slide the defender to enemies or to slide enemies away from squishies. It reminded me of the druid chill wind at-will or the wizards beguiling strands in a single target format.
Lightning Ring coupled well with the Swordmages Booming Blade as a disincentive to move away/punishment stacking if it did. We weren't certain if this damage triggered off of forced movement, but the DM gave it to them making Lightning Ring + Unseen Hand a decent way to squeeze out some damage.
They used a charm spell for their daily that slid a monster and made it attack, which was a nice trick to augment their Jedi mind tricks.* The player liked having wizard spells, but felt underwhelmed by most of them as daily powers.
*Suggestion cantrip = mind trick, Unseen hand = force push, Lightning Ring = force lightning...
The Bladesinger felt a lot like the swordmage until the player realized they could target other creatures, then it opened up. I can imagine a number of interesting possibilities for this class.
Overall it was pretty cool: good control, good damage, good defenses and it synergized well well with the party.
The base abilities made for a great base, but the encounter powers as daily powers left the player feeling cold. We would have to play beyond level 1 to see how that plays out over time. The swordmage was annoyed that they had to spend feats to get the eqiuvalent of base Bladesinger abilities though.

I would rule in my games (until otherwise informed) that forced movement would trigger the additional damage. In fact some of my players were thinking of combos using the Bard, Monk and Bladesinger together to have fun making me work hard to run a game for them. LOL.

I will just bring out twig blights on them and root them.