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Loremaster - How to Make 5e FR the Best of all Possible Worlds

    • How to Make 5e FR the Best of all Possible Worlds

      by
      Erik Scott de Bie
      Published on 01-09-2012 08:28 PM  Number of Views: 2225  
      11 Comments Comments
      As exciting as the new edition is, I think we'd all benefit from a discussion of their flagship setting--the Forgotten Realms--and what the new edition means for it. I posted this on my website, and I'll share it here, in hopes of sparking some conversation!
      I'm sure folks don't need to hear WotC's announcement from me, but just in case, here's a link.

      This raises the question of the fate of the Forgotten Realms in 5e.

      According to EN World, The Forgotten Realms will be supported from the start, and a video game art studio from China has been hired to fully detail the Realms. I asked if going forward support would be continued for the current time after the Spellplague and the Neverwinter Campaign. A WotC spokesperson answered, "The Forgotten Realms has a rich history and we will support all of it. It is for the gamers to decide which time they would enjoy playing in." That would allow Wizards to take advantage of a massive back catalog of products; however, there are no current plans that we know of for other settings - we assume these will follow in later years.

      That's promising but not very specific.

      What follows is my list of what WotC should do, IMO, to make the Forgotten Realms the awesome, financially successful, flagship setting it deserves to be.

      1. Don't retcon 4e out of existence--rather than destroy, BUILD:

      Personally, I would not do a retcon. That would be bad from a business standpoint, a fan standpoint, and a story standpoint. Not only would they burn bridges with all their fans of 4e, but they'd also demolish story hooks that are being advanced in 4e. Erevis Cale? Done. Shadowbane? Done. Even DRIZZT? Done. Fortunately, I also don't think WotC is going to go that way. They already saw the havoc that wreaked on Dragonlance. Do they--or we--really want to see our beloved Realms go down in flames like that?

      Also, we saw what happened when we tried to enact sweeping, unprecedented changes to the setting. (Not the best strategy.)

      What would be BEST is if we could get to a place where we all agree on the setting, and just go with it there. But since that isn't going to happen, what *I* would do is release stuff that supports all eras of the Realms, so that people playing 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e, or 5e can still use anything that comes out. I'm completely fine with seeing the mechanical stuff that comes out support whatever edition is *current*, but story material should support any edition. I'd like to return to the days of 75% flavor, 25% crunch. (Which is where I think WotC design is headed, actually.)

      2. Support all eras--sourcebooks, novels (more, please!), and online fiction included:

      Give the eras of the Realms the Star Wars Expanded Universe treatment. Release sourcebooks that support multiple eras--that give you a baseline of what a place is like (Waterdeep, Suzail, Silverymoon, Dalelands, etc.), then give you customizing tools to tailor it to whatever era you want to play in.

      Authors and designers should work in all eras. I want to see this made not only more possible but actively encouraged. The problem is a little bit the business case--people want to feel as though they are witnessing progress, so novels set mostly or entirely in the past need to have some clear connection to the future--they still need to move things along. Thankfully, Realms history is so rich with mysterious events and cool happenings (see Grand History of the Realms) that I don't see this being a problem. I would love to write a whole series about more than one of my "post-dated" characters--Fox-at-Twilight and Arya Venkyr spring to mind.

      I would like to see WotC put out more novels (15-20 a year, not the 10-12 we have now) and I'd like to see them move into inexpensive online fiction, which hits every other week or so. $1-$2 for a 6k-8k story, downloadable from WotC, from Amazon, the iTunes store, or whatever you want. These may be included with your DDI subscription (up to WotC to decide that--I would personally do it).

      A thought occurred to me, to have our cake and eat it too: what about TWO Realms novel lines? The regular Forgotten Realms line (which features stories set in the 1480s), and then "Forgotten Realms: Legends," which features stories not only from the pre-Spellplague era but also from far-removed times/places?

      3. Work hard to give us a strong mechanical system and also ACRES OF STORY:

      I don't know about 5e's mechanics--they're still in the works. But the big opportunity here is to build a system that lends itself to ALL ERAS of play. You could pull this off with previous editions, too, with a lot of work. But 5e can be integrated--can bring all eras together under one umbrella so that you can flow into anything you want. This game should be so badass that you'll WANT to use the system.

      And for those players who don't want to use 5e? What about people who are perfectly happy with 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e, or (yes) Pathfinder RPG? (Because no matter how good the system is, there will be some, I promise!) Fortunately, there's everything that goes along with it: story, sourcebooks, content up the wazoo. The business case for this is simple: reach out to everyone who plays any sort of D&D and say "here--here's a setting you can use whole-cloth with whatever you're doing. Have at it."

      Anyone playing any edition should be able to pick up a 5e Forgotten Realms sourcebook and use it in his/her game. It's as simple as that.

      The Realms is vastly underdetailed, especially considering the scope of its history. Start with better explanations of the 4e transitions. There's a lot of story there, and I think we can get to a narrative point where some of the big shenanigans are resolved. And I think that a lot of this is being dealt with as we speak, er, type. Let Ed deal with the Mystra situation, for instance (which he's currently doing). Give us another piece about the drow and their pantheon (hint hint, Menzo sourcebook). Let me deal with Helm (which I'm currently doing). Give Paul time to work the Shar/Mask/Erevis Cale thing (again). Continue this trend.

      Also, let us fill in some of that gap. I know it's nice for DMs to have an open area they can "fill in" with their own stuff, but it's far better for them to have the information to use if they want, and ignore it if they don't, rather than be FORCED to make it all up.

      What's the Bottom Line?

      5e is our opportunity to pull everything together and move forward with a strong, vibrant Realms that is better than ever before.

      (Also: yay!)

      Now let's get to work.

      Cheers
      Comments 11 Comments
      1. Steelfiredragon's Avatar
        Steelfiredragon - 01-09-2012, 09:15 PM
        bring Mystra, Helm, Eiistraee and Yondala back and the roll of years in the book and I'll be happy.
      1. gaming tonic's Avatar
        gaming tonic - 01-09-2012, 10:49 PM
        Hey Eric,
        While I am not allowed to speak due to NDA about the specifics of any products or marketing that perhaps WotC has planned or is looking into at the moment, from reading your post I think that you, Matt, myself, and anybody who is a fan of the Realms is going to be stoked. At least if the implementation can match the ideas. I have said to much.

        ---------- Post added at 10:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

        Errr...Erik. It has been a busy day of much typing. My apologies. I spelled to wrong as well in my last sentence. Good night now.
      1. Matt James's Avatar
        Matt James - 01-10-2012, 05:56 AM
        We're well aware of future endeavors
      1. shauno's Avatar
        shauno - 01-10-2012, 08:48 AM
        If they do support all eras like in StarWars, than they need to provide material for 5e that is universal. I would also like to see remakes of old campaigns like spelljammer.
      1. 9thChapter's Avatar
        9thChapter - 01-10-2012, 10:27 AM
        I echo your comment on the 75/25 split, Erik. I'd personally like to see a return to the root of the game and perhaps focus on what made it great. Emphasis on the Realms as a core setting would be fantastic with a 1e backbone supporting it.

        I suppose it will be up to the public to guide where 5e ultimately falls. I'd think OSR and people like me (in their mid-to-late 30s and old enough to have been around when the first books came out) will weigh in heavily on this one. I hope.
      1. Steelfiredragon's Avatar
        Steelfiredragon - 01-10-2012, 01:11 PM
        the only way to make that part universal would be to:
        make the Forgotten Realms player book contain all thigns for the players.
        back ground information for each area that can cover all eras
        prestige/paragon things for each era
        themes for each era

        and by prestige/paragon/ character themes for each era I mean for them to fit into each era easily.

        and the roll of years calander in it.( I missed that in 4e)


        they also need to reprint lost empires(without the feats. prestige classes) and combine it with the grand history of the realms( two best fr books ever)
      1. EytanBernstein's Avatar
        EytanBernstein - 01-10-2012, 10:14 PM
        The multiple timelines approach as a fantastic idea - kudos Erik. I think it needs some tweaking to help avoid some of the pitfalls the plague 4th edition, however. [Side note: I don't think anything below applies to novels. You can write a novel in any period, or even in two or more periods if you're really talented. That's really up to the creative vision of the Novel Line Director and the author. Personally, I tend to prefer present-timeline novels. But I never shy away from reading past ones either).]

        It's hard to say how two timelines could affect mechanics (and you know I'm a mechanics whore). One big reason for the Spellplague was to explain the drift away from Vancian magic and towards "powers," for lack of a better term. We don't know (or I should say I don't know) what the new magic system will be, so it's hard to say how that will affect this crucial aspect of the Realms. If the mechanics of the game allow for relatively little difference between characters pre or post-Spellplague, then it wouldn't be that difficult to include information about any given area, organization, religion, and so on, in two different time periods.

        If, on the other hand, the mechanics of the game are very power-driven, using both time-lines would be difficult because older timeline characters would still use Vancian magic. We don't want people to say, "if the game allows me to play in the older timeline, why don't I just use the older rules?" After all, there are sourcebooks that date things for quite some time back, so people could really use 2nd or 3rd/3.5 rules instead of using this new version. Obviously, there couldn't be both Vancian AND powers-based mechanics because that would be like having two editions of both mechanics AND story smushed together (in which case, why use this edition at all).

        Ultimately, one of the difficulties with fourth was that it didn't seem to have a unified vision. It changed course so many times, leaving players feeling confused. That's the very thing that drew people to Pathfinder - it had a unified and clear ruleset and a unified and clear (and fresh) world. Pathfinder drew a following that 4th couldn't because it didn't seem to have a cohesiveness. The mechanics of the core rules, as well as the setting, can't feel that multiple editions were simply smashed together to appease everyone. Certainly wisdom and strong elements from other editions, or even other games, should be considered, and D&D does have some classic elements (some of which should be brought back), but a major goal should be to blend, harmonize, syncretize, and balance (and I am using that term to describe a game system, not character creation).

        This is also why a multiple timeline approach is risky. In trying to appease everyone, you might not appease anyone because the game might be going in too many directions. But I think I see what you might be getting at and one possible way to approach things.

        Perhaps instead of developing content that is exclusive to various periods of time, i.e. an article on the Time of Troubles, one on Cyric's Betrayal, and so forth, it could take a different approach. Each article, supplement, or other piece of content that details a particular set of history, a region, a location, a religion, and so on could do so without specifying when the game has to be played. Assume that the base is most likely the present, but don't force the issue. Most players will want to play in the present and the setting should operate as if events are slowly moving forward, but really, when you release a setting book, the timeline is pretty much frozen for several years. There's no reason to push the issue.

        In the core book, as well as in any supplement, article or adventure, write article/adventure/mechanic as if it was in the present, but say things like - if pre-spellplague, such and such; or perhaps even - if during (or pre) Time of Troubles, such and such. You might say things like, "not available post-spellplague" or "not available pre-spellplague," "or only available pre-Time of Troubles." Those should be the exception, not the rule, but add a small element of uniqueness.

        Feats, prestige classes/or paragon paths (or whatever), powers, or whatever else has prerequisites, can have little sidebars if they have time sensitive content.

        I guess what I'm saying might sound semantic, but the goal is to rarely write content that would be unusable by anyone. So don't write an article only usuable pre-spellplague, or only usable during the Time of Troubles (however much I might start to drool over it). Instead, write an article about Damara that describes geography, history, NPCs, organizations, threats, and so on throughout history. If you include mechanics, make sure that you find away to adapt them to different time period(s) if at all possible. This way, you aren't fracturing your setting.

        If anything the goal of this setting should be to unify whenever possible, rather than fracturing. What I'm saying is very similar to Erik's brilliant idea, but the only difference is that it seeks to make every piece of content usable to every player, rather than having many articles, each of them detailing something from a different timeline. I fear that if this were the case, many people would complain that too much of the content didn't apply to them. If each individual piece of content or writing was usable to players of previous edition games, as well as players in the current edition who use an earlier timeline, the Realms happiness quotient rises considerably. And that is certainly what everyone wants.
      1. Frylock's Avatar
        Frylock - 01-10-2012, 11:42 PM
        Thanks for your thoughts, Erik. This idea has the potential to get unwieldy. Of course, you'll also have the general campaign setting, but specific areas could/should have separate sourcebooks. As I'm sure most of you recall, Waterdeep had its own source book in 3.5. Now, Neverwinter has its own campaign setting. As far as I'm concerned, Suzail should have its own. If each of these sourcebooks has to have a period-based version, there'll be far too many books, with each having limited sales. If, on the other hand, each sourcebook covered all the periods, we'd lose a lot of substantive content, or the books would be so thick and pricey that no one would buy them.

        I say these things only to point out the balance that WotC needs to manage. Trying to be all things to everyone is quite a challenge. DDI content should certainly alleviate that concern, making the latter suggestion (i.e., each sourcebook handling mulitple eras) more viable, but then you have to worry about which material is prioritized. If gamers are going to complain because the first Monster Manual didn't have frost giants, think about the number of complaints you're going to get when a campaign sertting sourcebook limits its content to an even larger base of demanding gamers.
      1. shauno's Avatar
        shauno - 01-13-2012, 10:48 AM
        I wonder if Forgotten Realms is going to be to default campaign setting this time around. Many of the default gods in 4e are from that setting.
      1. Dalor Darden's Avatar
        Dalor Darden - 05-18-2012, 04:15 PM
        I'm entirely hoping against hope that instead of ONLY focusing on moving the campaign world forward; they will be able to easily work in the years before as well...it would allow me to again enjoy the Forgotten Realms on many levels...and over years of play.

        The one thing I hope most is that they work to exclude the rules from actually shaping the Realms; but instead work on regions/people as more abstract and capable of being used with any rules. While they could still of course work things in the 5e stats, they would ensure that it was not a concrete absolute that it be used that way.
      1. Scrivener of Doom's Avatar
        Scrivener of Doom - 05-20-2012, 08:54 AM
        If the next version of FR is going to truly rock then the very first thing that needs to be done is:

        PUBLISH A DECENT MAP!!!

        I actually like the 4E version of the Realms (and the Grey Box, and 2E and 3E) but the map is so appallingly bad it can easily be a turn-off for DMs. I mean, besides the inaccuracies, it lacks --any-- meaningful detail (yeah, yeah, I know that was called a feature but it's a flaw, IMO) and actually looks like the content of my baby son's diaper (seriously... he's producing some green and black gunk that seems to be drawn from the same colour palette that was used in the design of the FR map).

        I would really like to see WotC do to FR what they did to Eberron: treat the game world as separate from the novel world and leave it to individual DMs to advance the timeline in their own games. This deals with the oft-heard/oft-read complaint that it is impossible to stay on top of the ever-growing body of FR canon. (But, as with any suggestion, there will be many vocal fans who vehemently disagree.)

        As for the "official" version of FR that is released in conjunction with 5E, that is a really tough question. Without sales data to draw on, my gut feeling is that it would be better to reset the Realms to around 1375DR and ignore the events of the Spellplague. That way the really hardcore FR fans would have "their" world back and, with a non-advancing timeline, perhaps new fans would not be intimidated by the potential for Realmslore to grow beyond their ability to assimilate into their own campaigns.

        As for my own games, right now I am planning to stick with 4E and also the post-Spellplague Realms. I will continue to buy all the FR products that are released but I have enough 4E FR campaigns that I want to run that my gaming life will be quite busy for the next few years.