Article: How LFR is killing the Forgotten Realms

[Matt James]

You can view the page at http://www.loremaster.org/content.php?135-How-LFR-killed-the-Realms

[JohnduBois]

Going to reiterate what I already said to Matt on Twitter - this is a pattern I've noticed in RPGA play as a whole; many Greyhawk grognards had the same complaints about LG, and that was before the "4e is MMO" discussion. However, I think this is a function of the player base rather than the system or writing, since it's a trait of both campaigns. My main response is a question from my perspective as one of the LFR writing directors: How do you encourage story interaction in players who are expecting grind (especially those who like story and roleplaying but have come to expect grinding in LFR)?

[Alphastream]

I can't blame it solely on the players. The early mods and authoring guidelines set the stage for the current play style, as did regions with too few mods and infrequent story links. XP budgets made combat the clear focus. Current LFR is night and day better, but that legacy remains in the player base. The Gen Con Specs beg for RP and ooze story, as did the second MINI. The Epic I playtested was story-rich. LFR is getting better, but will the player base rise with it?

---------- Post added at 01:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------



Oh, and to create story you need story-focused scenes. Drop that combat and force a decision. Remove skills from a skill challenge and put in situations that must be solved and NPCs with which the PCs must interact/reason/convince (not roll). LG was full of that.

[Frylock]

Story awards should matter. Chapters in an ongoing story arc should be able to be played in immediate succession instead of one chapter per tier. "Three combats and a skill challenge" should be abolished. Every skill challenge should have a list of sample role-playing actions that grant automatic successes. Rituals should be castable in combat at the expense of dazing the caster for however many rounds it takes to cast the ritual, which should be based on the normal, PHB casting time (idea stolen from someone else). Skill challenges to disable traps in combat should have their complexities reduced considerably, making trapsmithing a reasonable option. (Admittedly, those last two are criticisms more of the 4e rules.)

Perhaps these issues are being resolved with the changes to LFR. Honestly, I don't know because I don't enjoy playing LFR anymore, so it's hard for me to justify keeping up with the 100-page documents discussing those changes. :) The only reason I still play -- and I hope Matt joins me in this -- is because public play grows the D&D community. Even though I can't stand playing it, I will continue to do so. I wouldn't have my three home groups (and a couple hundred new friends) if it weren't for public play.

[ERJHolton]

I've kept away from the various organised play events precisely because that's the attitude towards LFR I've seen in a number of places. I certainly wouldn't want to run one.

I'm not as big of a fan of the Realms as Matt is, but in all of the games I play I like the background details. Hell, I said I wasn't going to buy any setting-specific books for 4E, but playing DDO directly led me to buy the Eberron Campaign Guide so I could get some of the lore. But I know that there are a lot of people who game "for teh ph4t lewtz", and I suspect that organised play includes a substantial amount of that crowd.

[Matt James]

Keep in mind that I am not slamming the format, only the venue from which it was deployed. I'm all for some down and dirty tactical wargaming, but I feel the Forgotten Realms are suffering, in part, from it.

Happy New Year everyone!

[D'karr]

Dramatic? Of course. Is it true, killed? Not really, but LFR suffered from some issues that were just not addressed in a timely fashion. Why have a Living Campaign set in the Forgotten Realms and not really use any of the lore that was FR significant? I know there was a jump of 100 years, but that does not invalidate the previous history. Injecting some of that into the adventures would have helped to "ground" them in the setting. Instead we got places and locations that were simply names. Weekend in the Realms used a "classic" location, "The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar", but instead of having an adventure that included even one piece of lore on the location it was a combat intensive dungeon crawl with just one mention of the location and no information at all. For those that knew about the original adventure by Ed Greenwood the location "might" have been interesting, but for those that had no clue, it stayed completely unknown. The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar where as interesting as "Joe's Basement", which is to say not interesting at all. A small two paragraph synopsis of the location would have done wonders for that adventure. And would have made the adventure relevant to the Forgotten Realms. Imagine having an adventure in the Temple of Elemental Evil, completing the adventure, and not even knowing that you were having an adventure there, or why it was significant that you were there at all. That is the level of disconnect of LFR. Right now I can take almost any LFR adventure, file the serial numbers and nobody would even know that it was set in the Forgotten Realms.

Then there is the "issue" with the formulaic games. How many times can you scramble 2 skill challenges and 2 combats to make them interesting. The templated formula seems to really put a damper on the game. Add to that the Delve Format and you probably have the worst of both worlds.

LFR had something fantastic called DME, a DM was encouraged to modify as needed for fun at the table. The problem was that sometimes what he was given was seriously subpar, and a new DM is not going to have enough experience to necessarily modify effectively. If an adventure is wonderful thank the DM, if an adventure sucks, thank the DM. But it wouldn't hurt if the DM, specially inexperienced ones, were given better guidance on how to improvise to make the game exciting. Every little bit of help given to the DM adds up to a better experience for the players at the table, and there was little given to an inexperienced DM to make the games sing. If a combat is dragging, cut it short. If a combat is not exciting, improvise, but an inexperienced DM really needs help to improvise.

Then there was the issue of Quests. Some pieces of quests were so far removed from each other that nobody ever cared about the quest at all. Completing the quest itself was not a reward. Except for the XP it was very hard to care about them at all. How could they? At times it was dozens of game sessions before the PC would even see anything dealing with the quest. The PC got quest information at level 1, then got the second part of that quest at level 10 and the quest ended at level 11. From level 1-11 the character had no real connection to the quest.

IMO the greatest culprit was a disconnect of the story. I have several Paragon Tier characters and even more Heroic Tier ones. I honestly don't feel any deep connection to any of them or to the Forgotten Realms through them. The "stories" they have participated in have been completely forgettable. Then there are the adventure "story" rewards. I have not found a way that they could be made more generic. I could care less that the Fire Knives are out to get me, that I'm a Knight of Myth Drannor, or any other story award for that matter. This is a direct result of the fact that the story awards do nothing; and I don't mean in a mechanical way. They are "story awards" but have no relevance to any story because there seems to be none. In LG, when I was an Exalted Lord of Tenh, and everybody was one of those, at least I cared about what happened to Tenh.

LFR couldn't have killed the Forgotten Realms because for all intents and purpose it was never set in the Forgotten Realms. The connection between the two is so tenuous as to be non-existent.

YMMV

[Steelfiredragon]

they canned the roll of years they time jumped to clean the slate, they even killed the slate

the lfr was doomed from the begining


the FR was and is not a tactical warplaying world, but a Role playing world and a well written adventure modules are likely hard to come by.

moving on.

[Matt James]

I beg to disagree, a tad. What little Forgotten Realms adventures we have seen, have been pretty good. Even many of them in the Living campaign have been quite enjoyable with bits of Realmslore. The campaign did, however, crush much of that in the name of the format. I would have much more preferred a generic Points of Light setting for use in the RPGA.

[Steelfiredragon]

Nentir vale would have and should have( I REALLY HATE FING WORD, BLAST YOU MICROSOFT) done better....


Opinions are like an arse, every body's got one and they are all two things.......... and the other is they all stink


hahahha

[4EHater]

To argue that 4E isn't an MMO is like arguing that the Earth is truly flat.

The problem with Forgotten Realms is WotC force-fed the generic 4E lore down its throat so they can bring every campaign setting into uniformity.

It's 4E that is killing FR. You want players to be interested in the RP and the lore of FR again? Go back to the days of 2e TSR when there were thousands of words in small font embracing each page of those books, little art, little mechanics, and pure lore. That's what made FR the famous campaign setting that it is. And now it's reduced to an MMO with next-to-nothing lore spread out between huge chunks of game mechanics and tiny articles in Dungeon Magazine.

Remember Faiths&Avatars, Shining South, Lands of Intrigue, the Savage North and many more, filled to the brim with lore. Even side-books like Code of the Harpers, Draconomicon, and Cult of the Dragon.

We don't see material like that anymore, instead we see books written with material that drive players to only care about the mechanics and the dungeon grinding.

4E's method of designing the game was a mistake from the beginning. The failing market for 4E, which is evident in every action WotC has been taking as of late, is proof of that.

Let's not forget the thousands that gave up on FR after the 100 year change and the 4E force-feeding. It's on a slow death. It's best bet of staying alive is to sell or license it to a game company that cares about it. (Paizo and their Pathfinder rules for FR would be wonders!)

[D'karr]

To argue that 4E isn't an MMO is like arguing that the Earth is truly flat.

The problem with Forgotten Realms is WotC force-fed the generic 4E lore down its throat so they can bring every campaign setting into uniformity.

It's 4E that is killing FR.
Hah, hah. Good one. This is so 2008... ;)

There are two words that I can easily use to refute that assertion; Dark Sun.

If it was 4e that was killing FR, then the same could be said about Dark Sun or even Eberron, and nothing could be further from the truth.

This has very little to do with the 4e ruleset itself. There is nothing inherent to the 4e rules that would do this. This has everything to do with how the LFR adventures have been done and their "story" disconnect to FR itself.

FR is not dying at all. I've had the opportunity to play in two games of FR that have been fantastic. But neither of them were based on LFR adventures. Even then there are very few LFR adventures that I'd put in the "turd" category. It's just that a lot of them were "bland" and "disconnected".

[ERJHolton]

I don't think 4EHater has the remotest inkling of the depth of lore that goes into many MMOs. EverQuest (and its sequel), WoW and EVE Online all are excellent examples where the backstory has immense depth. Puts a damper on his arguments, in my opinion.

[Matt James]

I wrote an article on Critical Hits about the MMO topic and showed how MMOs ripped off D&D. This, however, is off-topic.

[UkPlayerX]

I wrote an article on Critical Hits about the MMO topic and showed how MMOs ripped off D&D. This, however, is off-topic.

Correct me if wrong, but wasn't it in Gary Gygax's epitaph/eulogy/memorial somewhere stated that NEARLY EVERY pc/mmo game where you attempt to hit something used the mathematical formula of THAC0 or similar? without gg no mmo (and without tolkien no D&D)
off topic...continue, sorry :D

[4EHater]

Hah, hah. Good one. This is so 2008... ;)

There are two words that I can easily use to refute that assertion; Dark Sun.

If it was 4e that was killing FR, then the same could be said about Dark Sun or even Eberron, and nothing could be further from the truth.

This has very little to do with the 4e ruleset itself. There is nothing inherent to the 4e rules that would do this. This has everything to do with how the LFR adventures have been done and their "story" disconnect to FR itself.

FR is not dying at all. I've had the opportunity to play in two games of FR that have been fantastic. But neither of them were based on LFR adventures. Even then there are very few LFR adventures that I'd put in the "turd" category. It's just that a lot of them were "bland" and "disconnected".

When was the last time you saw an extensive, barely-any-game-mechanics, book for the Forgotten Realms setting with pages and pages of small font outlines of so many story-driven and highly detailed layouts of cities, regions, maps, etc.?

Personally, not since the days of 2E. Churning out the books did run TSR to the ground, but I think TSR would still be around if they focused solely on just FR and Greyhawk alone. But hindsight is 20/20.

3rd Edition tried to do a mixture of the two, but then WotC got stingier with its budget and we saw less and less FR lore as the years went by. Now, all we have is these weak LFR modules, a short blurb in Dungeon 1/month, and every few years a (like that Neverwinter book coming out soon). Everything else is in the novels.

There is clear evidence that it's really the FR novel line that they only care about and not so much as the game. All of their novels are canon to the setting and they are churning out dozens of those novels every few months. Shouldn't those novels be adventure modules? Shouldn't those novels be in Dungeon articles and FR books to expand on the setting and make the players realize it's a fantasy world, not a loot and kill world?

How does Dark Sun and Eberron have anything to do with what I said about Forgotten Realms dying? I stated Forgotten Realms dying because of the lack of support for it as a game setting, the force-feeding of the 4th Edition mythology into the Forgotten Realms mythology, the timeline jump which affected both the game and novels, and dozens of other factors that were quickly turning off long-time Realms fans (like myself) into real haters of the new (and not anything of the same) Forgotten Realms setting. At this point and time, it's been clear between many gamers that the pre-4E and post-4E Realms are two very different settings. The name brand is their only real similarity.

Even Ed Greenwood posted on Candlekeep his warning to the company that this is not going to do the Realms any good. And he was right.

Eberron is too new, and it was clear from its origins that it was being built for the upcoming 4th Edition. Let's not forget that Eberron was being built alongside the beginnings of the 4th Edition rules. It's why Eberron received almost NO changes to its setting except for a 3 year time jump. Which angered many Eberron fans and WotC decided NOT to do the timeskip. Spoiled much? Did the FR fans get anything? No. WotC clearly cares less about its original base, it wants a new one. Which means, in time, the new base will be discarded as easily as we were.

Dark Sun hasn't been given spotlight for so long that it's hard to tell what has happened to it. Now I will call it out here, that Ravenloft will be lost in the 4E mythology mess and will no longer be the same Ravenloft it was before.

It is clear this is all a battle of the old generation against the new. I believe anyone for 4E and any of the campaign settings affected by it are avid WoW players and have not grown up playing D&D since 1e or 2e, so they have not been able to fully grasp and appreciate what D&D was and how it lost what it used to be with the WotC CCG/MMO mindset shoved into D&D's carcass.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------



SIDENOTE: If you want to save the Realms, sell it to Paizo Publishing for Pathfinder, or give it back to Greenwood. In fact, Ed Greenwood is already doing freelance work for them so that doubles benefits of bringing the Realms back in line to what it should be by selling it to them.

[Matt James]

I'm sorry, you have so many argument fallacies that we can't even have a conversation. I won't delete your post, as I think it serves as a good example. All of that aside, it appears you came to this site with the specific purpose of trolling. Is your issue is with format? I can totally appreciate your opinion on the matter, and to some extent empathize with your dislike of some of the changes. I can only hope you continue to find enjoyment in your own gaming needs.

As for Ed (of whom I am great friends with), he doesn't post on Candlekeep. You would do well to not parse words he may or may not have said, as I will not take it lightly. Furthermore, what kind of pompous, arrogant ass do you have to be to assume you know what is best for everyone and where the Realms should exist?

As a side note, Luis, I would be interested in knowing what exactly you created in the Expanded Psionics book-- something you have stated clearly on Meetup.com and of which I can find no one who knows you from that project.

This article and topic is about the Living Campaign. Please keep it on topic, or troll another website. I would even suggest airing your grievances over at the Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/dnd) site.